Speaker 1 00:00
Welcome to the Full Life Podcast. I'm Zach and Bowden, and if we're honest, most of us like certainty. We like stability. We want to know where we're going, how things are going to turn out, and whether our next step is worth the risk. But throughout Scripture, God rarely gives His people the entire roadmap. Instead, he invites them to trust him one step at a time. So maybe you're facing a career change, or a ministry opportunity, a loss of a loved one, or a dream that feels bigger than your abilities. You sense God leading you, but saying yes means stepping into something you've never walked before. Today's conversation is for anyone standing at the edge of the unknown. So today, our guest Denisha has firsthand experience in what it means to trust God in the uncertainty. Denisha is learning and has learned what it means to be obedient doesn't eliminate fear, but allows us to trust God's faithfulness in ways we could never have imagined. So today we're going to talk about what it looks like to trust God when our future feels unclear, and how to discern God's voice and why our greatest growth often often happens on the side of obedience. So, Denisha, welcome to the pod. Glad you are here with us today.
Speaker 2 01:28
Zach, I'm so excited to be here with you as well. Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1 01:32
Absolutely. Tell us a little about who you are and what you do right now.
Speaker 2 01:36
All right. So, personally, I am the mother of four. I have three three dogs and now a kitten. So that is my passion. Is my family and professionally, which is sort of what what drives me in a lot of ways as well. I am a speaker. I'm a coach, and I founded a ministry about seven and a half years ago called Reclaimed Story. And so basically, I've been in corporate America for 20 years, and I've been in ministry for the past 16. And so it's it's interesting combining both of those together and serving women as they heal from the pain of their past. We really believe that your story can become your strength, and so we get to walk with women as they make that a reality in their lives.
Speaker 1 02:21
To learn more about reclaimed stories, where do we go to learn more about that?
Speaker 2 02:25
Yeah, you can go to reclaimstory.com and also reclaim story on Facebook and Instagram as well.
Speaker 1 02:31
There you go. Well, Denisha, thanks for being on here and on a unique topic: how to say yes when when God takes you into the unknown. And so, to start the conversation, when you hear the phrase "Hey, to say yes to God, let's help define that piece first. What comes to mind for you?
Speaker 2 02:50
Well, first of all, when you said this episode is for you if you're trusting God with the unknown, I thought this episode is for me. I think saying yes to God, we might think it's obedience, right? We might think you know it's it's being obedient, but I think there's so many different parts to what it means to say yes. How do you know what you're saying yes to? How do we know the character of God and who we're saying yes to? And then what does saying yes look like? So I was thinking about that and thought there's so many different parts to what does yes mean. I want to say, oh, it's obedience, Zach. That's what it is. It's it's all about the obedience, just going what I think God is telling me to do. But I think that takes a few steps to get there sometimes.
Speaker 1 03:34
What what would you say some of those steps are?
Speaker 2 03:36
So one first to tell you a little bit about how I'm wired because it's going to sound like, oh, you know, I just implement these three things and we go right. But the way that I'm wired is, I would love it if God could give me a five year plan on an Excel sheet in a three ring binder with color coded tabs. Okay, that is that would be wonderful. But here's what I would do if he did that. That would be certainty. You mentioned certainty, right? That would be certainty. But what I would do with that binder, if he gave me the most beautiful binder ever, I would take that and I would run like someone has just passed me the Olympic torch, right? Like I would go. And I think what God calls us to do is He won't give us that because I would run and go. He knows me for that. So for all of you planners and people who like control in their lives, that would be awesome. But we would take it and we would run, and that's not what God's calling us to do. So I've learned sometimes that obedience can come even before understanding. So we may not get that binder right, but what it causes us to do is it causes us to stay really close to Him. You know, if I start to whisper, everyone's going to lean in a little bit, right? If I yell, people are going to go, "Oh, I hear you, and keep walking. But I think that when the Lord doesn't give us that plan, when He doesn't shout. Really loud, exactly those perfect next steps. That's when we have to lean in and trust him, but also lean in to hear his voice a little bit more. So that I am definitely a planner, and so this has been a big challenge for me. So I just want to lay that down. So if anybody's like, "Oh, that must be easy for her, oh no, it's not. I beg for the three ring binder all the time. So
Speaker 1 05:24
even just for the next year, it doesn't have to be the next five to 20 years. Just the next six months would be really nice. Yeah, and so for me, I'm the same way. I have lots of plans in my head that are 1015, 2030, years from now. But for me, that that saying yes is having to really get to a spot in my life. Like, can I trust God? Can I really trust God that He has what's best for me? And and for me, which when I ask that question, doesn't mean to say yes. It's really asking the question, can I really trust God? And then, to be honest, and then the easy answer is yes. I trust God. I'm a pastor. I'm a spiritual director. I'm a coach. Like, yeah. I mean, yes, I do trust God. But when it comes, it helps. It helps and pulls put a spotlight on my heart on the places that I don't trust Him, and so it makes me then realize, okay, where am I falling short? Where do I trying to hold on to control? Where where do I have images of God that aren't true, and so for me to really say yes, do I trust Him? I really do. I really do have to get to a spot to say yes to Him means that He has what's best for me, even if I don't understand it, even if I don't believe it, even if I don't want it. That He has what's best for me, and so when I to say yes to God, really, I have to get to a spot for me to recognize that God has what's best all the time. He has what's good for me all the time for me, and and that's not always easy for me to be okay with. And so I have to work out the heart issues in my life to get to a spot where I can say yes to Him, and those things.
Speaker 2 07:04
Yeah, I love what you said too. Like you know His character. I think that comes from life experience. That comes from the Word, right? And I think faith is trusting the One who's leading us. It faith isn't about the destination. It is really truly about trust. You know, he doesn't always give us that whole map, but sometimes we'll have a nudge of what that next step looks like. So it's really it is trusting the one who's leading us that we can even give our yes to. I think too.
Speaker 1 07:35
Yeah. So you you've walked. You know, I'm not sure you can share what you want here, but you've walked through some challenging things over the last. You started a new business and stuff like that. You've had to walk through the unknown, and so as you are learning to walk through the known, that God is inviting you to to trust Him and all those things. What does that look like for you in your life right now?
Speaker 2 07:55
You know, I think a couple of things. Right now, it looks like starting in a new adventure with this ministry, it's been seven years. But when you're doing something grassroots, it can be a definite walk of faith. When I I think back on different times that God has asked for my yes, I remember there was a time I had not seen my biological dad for 30 years. So from when I was 11 till almost 41, and I saw him for the first time, and he got the Lord prompted me so strongly, Zach. Like it was you couldn't, I couldn't deny it, and I couldn't run from it, or I was going to be in disobedience. Like I could feel that, and he prompted me to ask him a question, and I remember sitting there and arguing with God, like I wanted to trust and just jump in, but I argued and I argued a little bit, and then finally I was obedient, and I I did go ahead and I asked him the question that he that I felt like the Lord was asking, and something really hard but really beautiful came out of it, and it was something I never could have seen coming. Right, so I think about that moment. I think about you're building trust, right? In that moment, even though I didn't want to do it, and I thought devastation was going to come, my dad's never going to want to talk to me. It's going to be another 30 years, you know. And those moments really laid the foundation for me of what my yes looks like and being able to trust God. I remember the first. I'm a back row girl in church. Okay, I don't sit under the spotlight. If it's underneath me during worship, I move. Like I am a very back row. Just want to be here, want to talk to my people, but don't want to be in a spotlight at all. And I remember the first time God asked me to get through my work, asked me to get up on the platform and preach, and I thought, what? Like, what are you doing? I'm a back row girl. Don't you know me? And to this day, so I I said yes through a whole. I argued and I wrestled and I tend to do that. But to this day, I will hold one hand when I go to speak. That speaking at church led to speaking nationally and. What's crazy about that is that is all about my yes. I wanted to say no. I said no for days. Right when that first came up, I was like, uh huh. But stepping into that, one thing that I do to this day is I'll hold one hand if I have my Bible, my notes, my community, whatever I've got. My other hand I hold, and I imagine walking out there with him. So he's got my yes, but I will not give him my yes unless I know he's going with me.
Speaker 1 10:24
Yeah,
Speaker 2 10:25
and so that is a big part. I think of again in Joshua three, right when Israel didn't receive the miracle to cross the Jordan. You know, the priests were carrying the ark, and they had to put their feet in the water. That they had to give their yes to God that this floodplain was going to part and heap up on both sides so they could walk through it, and I think that is a lot of giving God our yes is just I'm going to put my feet in the water I'm going to step on that stage I'm going to ask my dad that question I'm going to do these really I'm going to start that ministry to just if you feel that prompting, putting your feet in the water, we want all the answers. But I think that sometimes we have to put our feet in the water to watch God part it and take the next step. So, yes, it's been a little scary at times. It is,
Speaker 1 11:16
but it's also where the where the where we see opportunities for God has shown up in the most biggest ways in their lives.
Speaker 2 11:22
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 11:23
And and I went and I went trade all the places where God asked me to say yes, and I stepped into for all the pain and the struggle and all the things that went with it now in my life now. And so as I look towards my future and the things that God's inviting me to, I go okay, but I think you're gonna point. But you have you have our track record, Lis God, of showing up in meaningful ways.
Speaker 2 11:47
And is that amazing? And I think sometimes we think right, like God, what if this isn't you? I know that can that can stop me in my tracks. Like Lord, I trust this if I know it's you. But I need you know a billboard on this on the side of the highway, like I need something to tell me this is definitely you. And one of the things, and I I tell my coaching clients this is God is bigger than our decisions, right? So like if I make a choice, whether it's that job, that ministry, that question, that spouse, that all the things, right? Coach, a lot of people are like, I don't know if this is the person for me, or I don't know if I should take this job or that job. That you do the best that we can, and know that God is big enough to move us. You know, if we take one job and He really His best was something else, then I I think He's also big enough to move us. I don't always think that it's one way or you know he's just going to walk away from you. You know that that he's with us in our decisions, and he's big enough to move us when we need to be moved.
Speaker 1 12:48
Yeah. So what I hear us saying here is, if you're in seasons of the unknown and you're not sure where to go or where God's leading or He's inviting you something, you might not know what it is. Man, the first spot is to trust God. Like your life is always better when you when we trust Him. So whatever it is, where it's the reality of life hitting you, or the invitation God might have for you in the future, whatever the seasons of the unknown looks like for you, like the the first place really is to start and trust God. And when you do that, just to remind, we're reminding each other that that God has good things for us, and He always shows up in meaningful, significant ways, and God cares about us more than we could possibly imagine, and it might not go the exact way we think it might go, and the and the path might take some bumps along the way, but God shows up. He shows up every time, and so and so. Denisha, anything else on that on that piece of like the first step to step down the unknown and trust God? Anything else you want to just add to that conversation?
Speaker 2 13:52
You know, the only thing that comes to mind is Proverbs when it says, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding. I think that I notice that it doesn't say understand then trust. It says trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. So that's it's the trust part that's that's huge in knowing who He is and trusting Him no matter what.
Speaker 1 14:17
Yeah, and Denisha, I think as you and I were talking about this, it's about trusting God is important first, and then it's just discerning God's voice in that in the unknown. And so, when you think about what does it mean to discern God's voice, a question people often ask, and when I coach them, I'm sure in your coaching conversations as well, how do I really know it's from God and not just a burrito I had last night, or you know, my ego kicking in or my insecurities kicking in. How do you discern? How do you help people discern if it's really from God or not?
Speaker 2 14:49
I love the topic of discernment, and I love the fact you're talking about it. I discernment first, I think, flows from that relationship, like we've been talking about, right? It it. Flows from knowing who he is and then stepping out of that. So, for instance, if if God is leading me to something that doesn't align with His Word, then I know that's not the Lord, right? I know that's that's not Him, but it flows from that relationship with Him. And I think about one of the passages I've been really holding on to recently is John 15 five, and it's I am the vine, you are the branches. Right? If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit, whatever that fruit looks like. You know whether it's a decision you're making, as you mentioned. But apart from me, you can do nothing. It says, and part of me wants to figure it all out. Discernment is like, well, I have to make a spreadsheet of pros and cons, and I'm gonna, you know, figure it all out, right? But as simple as it sounds, and I do have my spreadsheets. Don't get me wrong, because I'll go to God with pros and cons and be like, okay, this is really scary and all the things. But I love that verse because it doesn't say figure it all out. It says remain in me. You know that direction flows directly from that relationship. Fruit grows from that connection, and so I think that that that discernment really comes from the relationship. What would you say to how would you describe discernment?
Speaker 1 16:14
Yeah, I would say a couple of things. One, God is not in fear. God is not in fear, and so when we when we pass from this world and go to heaven and and be spent, there will never be fear ever again. You will never experience fear ever again, and so part of discernment is recognizing where am I reacting out of fear in my life, and if you're reacting out of fear, that is God is not in that, and and so fear is usually indicators of mistrust that we may have in our lives, and so fear is a good indicator of just things we need to be aware and bring other people in and talk about and understand was it really is it my own insecurities whatever it might be and that's a great place to do some processing with other people coaching friends pastor other ways you can do that, and so if there's fear, that should be indicators that there's something in us that we need to process, and so that's helpful. And the other way I think about it too in discernment is to really get to a spot where you could pray, God, whatever you want. Now I pray, God, here's what I want you to do, and if you want to do something else, let it be a variation of what I want. It's easy to pray that, and it's easy to pray pray for those things, but to really just get to a spot to go, God, whatever you want, and I really do mean whatever. If I could get my heart to a spot, say, God, I'm willing to do this, or I'm willing to do that. This to happen, or for that to happen. If you want to bring this or take that away, I'm good. But to really be at a place in your relationship with God, which is such incredible peace, that it really God can do whatever He wants, and so that's really hard for me in decisions that I'm making, or life choices, or stuff like that. I have a strong preference to what I want, and that's okay. It's okay to have a preference, but but to really even die to yourself to a spot where you can relinquish that to what God would want to do, because God often takes the things that I want and then wants to move things in me, and that it come out in a totally different way than what I was expecting to happen individually better, but I have to die to myself, my own pride, my own ego, my own control issues. And so, if I could pray in a way that God, whatever you want to do here, A, B, or C, or whatever else you might want to do, I'm okay with it. That's a really helpful place for discernment.
Speaker 2 18:38
That's so good. One of the prayers that I've been praying along that same line, because I like control, I want to hold tightly to the end game, if you will. Jesus, what are you inviting me into? And sometimes, sometimes that fear is wrapped up in my own personal growth. Sometimes that that thing I'm arguing with Him about or trying to make a decision about sometimes it's not even about the decision, which is why His ways are so much bigger than our ways, right? It's not always about that thing, as you just mentioned. Sometimes it's about my ego. Sometimes about my pride. Sometimes it's about my growth, and so I've been trying to instead of God, I want this, right? Which I do that as well. Don't get me wrong, but like I've been trying to add, Lord, if you give me this, or if you don't give me this, or if you say wait, what are you inviting me into? And that's been a really beautiful relationship building thing for me, is because sometimes I don't like the answer, but I'm like okay with that. But it takes my focus off of, am I supposed to do this? Yes or no, you know, and it leads me more into that relationship of Lord. What are you inviting me into? If this is a yes, if this is a no, what are you inviting me into? And man, it gets back to trust a lot of times.
Speaker 1 19:51
It does absolutely, and so discernment really isn't just wait until every answer, every question is answered. It just like you're right. It's. Need to trust the one who's leading us, and so if we can have discernment and just walking through the journey that God has for us, He will lead. He will guide every time He will do that, and so we want to we want to trust God. You talked about we talk about we want to discern God's voice in our lives, and the last thing I think you've shared as we talk about how do you step into the unknown, is going on the adventure. Like you just have to go, and and there's a stepping out in faith that that you've talked about. And so, what does it look like to have to step into the adventure?
Speaker 2 20:37
Yeah, first of all, following Jesus right has never been something boring. It's been terrifying. It sometimes it stretches, but it's always worth it. As much as I like control, I think I would rather live an unpredictable life with him and being on that adventure. Like we can't see the whole picture, and we can't see how he's going to connect everything together for our good, for the kingdom's good, but what we can do is take that next step, and and I think having an adventurous spirit of just going, okay, Lord, not it's black and white, and there's right or wrong, but and I'm not talking about morally, I'm I'm speaking of like decision or you know decision making or that yes right, but it's saying like whether it's it's yes or it's no God you're gonna take me somewhere on this and I'm gonna learn and I fall flat like we were talking about sometimes we're close to the edge and I'm like okay I'm gonna step into the water and I might fall off a cliff and then end up in the water the water might part like I just have to be on that adventure and trust, you know, that that whatever God is calling me into, to stay curious about that adventure, curiosity over certainty, you know, and just being willing to to take that adventure with Him. We see so many adventures in the Word, right? Of just God doing incredible things. So I think that adventure is good, and I don't know about you, but I love the adventure, right? I love not knowing what God's going to do next. But in that, I also have questions, and I have wrestling with Him. So sometimes I wrestle, sometimes I argue, sometimes I tell Him why His idea sounds terrible, and that's part of my adventure, right? We're working a relationship just like you would a spouse, a friend. Like you're going to say, you know, I don't know. That sounds like a terrible idea. This is why I don't think we should do that. And that person might come back and say, you know, yeah, but let's try it or let's do this. Eventually, I think my heart's desire is to become so convinced of God's goodness, that even when I wrestle, even when I'm unsure of that unknown, that adventure sounds terrifying, but my heart keeps coming back to a yes, and so that's I think that's all part of the adventure. What does adventure mean to you?
Speaker 1 22:55
Let me let me ask you this question.
Speaker 2 22:56
Yeah.
Speaker 3 22:57
So
Speaker 1 22:57
seven years ago, you can share briefly if you're if you're willing. Seven years, you felt a sense of God calling you to start reclaimed stories, and that was an adventure. I'm just imagine for you. Do you do you could you share with us just just briefly about that? You know, hey, I heard, I heard, I felt that God invited me to this. I did some discernment, trust God, and then to step and step into that. How was that process for you?
Speaker 2 23:21
There were two major parts to that process. One was when God began reclaiming my story, and I had to trust. I, you know, for 40 years of my life, I'd shoved things under the rug of my life, and then about 40, I started walking and tripping over it constantly. You know, that looked like patterns or rhythms in my life that I wanted to change, and one day God began to peek under the rug, and He's like, "Here's the answers. I'm like, "No, no, no, we don't peek under that rug. That's not something we do. And so I had to trust, I had to discern, and I had to be ready for the adventure. And it was so worth stepping into those moments of healing with Him. So that that was my first part. The second part was two years later when he said, "Now start a ministry to help other women walk through, and that was scary, right? Because I'm one of those people that want to have it all figured out before I step in. I want to see that water part before I put my feet in, and so I that was a big leap of just yes, I'll do this. And I remember one prayer time just saying like, God, I don't have all this figured out. And my my just in my heart, I felt like He was saying, but you're not the healer. I am. You don't have to have it figured out. And all the pressure. But see again, that's that discerning. Like God, what are you doing in me? What are you inviting me into? I had to trust that he was going to show up when I met with ladies, when we did events, when we met with you know coaching clients one on one. I had to be certain that he was going to show up and trust that process. So that was trusting, that was discernment, and it has been an adventure for seven and a half years. Let me tell you that a year after. He said, "Start the ministry. He called me to leave my job that I had had for a decade as a pastor at our church. It was security, right? It was all the security of you know health insurance and all the things. And he, I thought I'd retire from there. And he called me to step out of that and completely go on our own with this ministry. So, I guess that's a third round, right? Of trust, discernment, and adventure. And seven and a half years later, still there, still having to trust. Remind myself that he is good no matter what's coming at me, and still having to just kind of walk through these these three things that we're talking about. So,
Speaker 1 25:39
and would you trade it? Would you do it over again?
Speaker 2 25:41
Yeah, I would. There's a part of you, right, that stops and pauses and thinks, I don't know, it's been real hard. Like, yeah, I wouldn't trade the adventure. I wouldn't trade how he and I have grown. As you know, I have fallen in the crowd to grab you know the hem of his garment and just said, I cannot do this without you, and so I wouldn't trade that part at all. There's moments I wish you would have told me, but absolutely, I wouldn't trade the journey.
Speaker 1 26:08
But no, yeah, and so I hope as you and and I we we could go here, we could see it for hours and just tell stories after stories of our lives. And if you listen, I'm sure there's things in your life where you've had to take a step of faith and see God. How are you going to show up? And now you look back on it and you see God's faithfulness, you see His goodness in in your life. But it doesn't always make it easy. Somebody makes it easier for the next one, and somebody makes it even just challenging for the next one. Just because you did it once doesn't mean God's going to show up the way He did before. And and so you know and so hopefully as you think about whatever the unknown is for you in life right now, that you would just know that God loves you, He cares for you, He wants what's good, He wants what's best for you in your life, and it might look different than what you're thinking about. It probably will, but but He He has an adventure for you to step in and lean into, and so Denisha, as we-if somebody was listening to this, as you just may echo what we just talked about there, if somebody's listening to this and they are feeling an invitation or just a reality of life has hit them for an adventure of what God has from the unknown, but fear or insecurities or whatever it might be, is holding them back. What would you say to
Speaker 2 27:27
them? I would say that when we choose obedience or choose to trust over our certainty that God is waiting for us in the unknown, that He knows the end from the beginning, so things that we don't know what's going to happen next, he does, and I think that certainty isn't found in the direction we take or what's coming at us, life circumstances. But I think the certainty is found in how tightly we cling, but not to certainty, but the one that we're clinging to. So I would say keep clinging to the Lord, even in the unknown, and just keep giving him your yes because it truly is-it's worth it. It's scary in the moment, but it is so worth it. So keep clinging to him.
Speaker 1 28:10
Yeah, are there are there scriptures have anchored you during your times of uncertainty that have been helpful for you? That would be helpful to share.
Speaker 2 28:18
You know, there is. I'm trying to think of the address right now. It's in Isaiah, but it says whether you turn to the right or the left, that your ears will hear a voice behind you saying, "This is the way. Walk in it, and that has been a passage that is really. I'm like, I don't hear, I don't hear, but I'm going to just really choose whether I turn to the right or the left. My ears will hear a voice. This is the way. Walk in it, and if I hear that wrong, he's bigger than my decision. So Isaiah 30, it's in chapter 30. I know that, but
Speaker 1 28:47
good. Well, Denisha, thanks for coming on the pod today. If people wanted to learn more about you, coaching, speaking, all that you do, how can they learn more about you?
Speaker 2 28:57
Yeah, Denisha Workizer, which neither one of those is easy, but it'll be the show notes. But denishaworkiizer.com, and you can also find me on Facebook, Instagram, and then the ministry is Reclaimed Story.
Speaker 1 29:10
And if people are wondering about coaching, what kind of coaching do you do?
Speaker 2 29:14
Yeah, so my favorite lane in coaching is helping people take information from their past that is relevant to their present, and then what to do forward. So I love purpose. I love finding things, turning pain from our life into purpose, and helping people take the next step into the calling that God has for them.
Speaker 1 29:33
That's so good. Well, thank you so much for sharing part of your story with us, and just being honest, and just the journey you're on. And I hope one thing that stands out from this conversation is that God rarely calls us into a life of certainty. He calls us into a life of relationship with Him that really is based upon trust, and the unknown can feel intimidating, but it can off. But it's often where we experience God's presence, His. Provision his faithfulness in the most deepest ways. So maybe as you're listening, this you already know the step God's inviting you to take. It might be to forgive someone. It might be to step into a new ministry, launching a new business, just walking through grief, changing careers, or just simply taking the next faithful step God has placed in front of you, and so that's why I want to leave you with this idea: God doesn't reveal the entire journey. He doesn't give you the full binder with all the markings and all that stuff. He just simply asks you to say yes. Every step of obedience becomes an opportunity to discover that God is faithful, and so in this conversation is stirred in you in your heart, and you're wrestling through something. What's next? And you don't know, you don't know what how to navigate that journey alone. One of the greatest gifts God gives us is people, and sometimes we need people to help us discern God's voice and what He's doing in our life, and to help us walk through those next steps. And so that's why I offer coaching or spiritual direction through full life coaching. You can reach out to Denisha, where if you're if you're seeking clarity or navigating major transitions or recovering from burnout or simply just wanting to grow closer to God, we'd be honored to walk alongside of you. You can learn more about me at fulllifeforyou.com. More about the coaching, spiritual direction, and resources to help you design the purpose in full life God has for you. So, thanks for joining us on our podcast today. If this conversation encourages you, would you do me a favor? Subscribe, leave a review, share it with someone who might be standing on the edge of the unknown. So, thanks for listening, and be a healthy leader and stay a healthy leader. Have a great day.
