What are the lies that shame tells us? I have to be perfect, or at least look like, so people will like me. I need to stuff my negative emotions so that I appear okay. I have to do more and be more to be acceptable. Those are just a few of the ways that shame shapes our beliefs. In this episode, Norma Donovan speaks directly into our hearts as she shares her own battle with shame and the keys that the Lord has given her to shatter shame in her life. As you listen, my prayer is that her victory can also be a victory for you. Let's shatter shame together.
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shame, norma, God, Lord, people, lie, Denisha, heart, reframe, truth, feel, hear, speaks, dad, shatter, thought, picture, life, restoring, experience
Norma Donovan, Denisha Workizer
Denisha Workizer 00:00
What are the lies that shame tells us I have to be perfect or at least look like it so people will like me. I need to stop my negative emotions so that I appear okay. I have to do more and be more to be acceptable. Can you relate? Those are just a few of the ways that shame shapes our beliefs. And in this episode, Norma Donovan speaks directly into our hearts as she shares her own battle with shame, and the keys that the Lord has given her to shatter shame in her life. And as you listen, my prayer is that normas victory can also be a victory for you. Let's live unashamed. If you enjoy hearing from Norma, you are going to want to pick up her book called restoring your heart to deepen intimacy on Amazon. Let's kick off this episode with Norma Donovan. Welcome to Living the Reclaim life Podcast. I'm Tanisha. We're glad you're here for conversations that revive hope, inspire healing and encourage you to live a vibrant life with Christ. So grab a cup of coffee as we chat with today's guest. We are continuing our conversation on shattering shame, and I believe that you will be encouraged and equipped by our guest today. Norma Donovan is an author, speaker and the founder and president of restoring hearts ministry with a master's degree in counseling her passions include mentoring women, being intimate with God and seeing other's hearts restored. Norma and her husband live in Kansas and have two grown children. And you guys, Norma recently published a book titled restoring your heart to deeper intimacy. And I can tell you I have gleaned so much I'm about halfway through right now. And I would love after you hear Norma today and hear her heart, I think you will want to grab that on Amazon as well. So again, it's restoring your heart to deeper intimacy. And we'll also be posting that on social this week. So Norma, thank you so much for joining us today. We're so happy to have you.
Norma Donovan 02:11
It is my pleasure. Tanisha. Thank you so much for inviting me to tell my story
Denisha Workizer 02:16
I am excited to hear because as I dove in your book, there's just such wisdom and such, you can tell that you've walked these things out with the Lord. You're not speaking from a place of I think this is what happened when you have this topic in your life or shame. But you're speaking from a place that has walked these topics out with such intimacy with the Lord. And so as we get started, why don't you tell me your story, how is shame impacted your life.
Norma Donovan 02:43
It's impacted it greatly in a nutshell. But I've experienced in Isha, what I would call common shame. And that's just shameful experiences that are common to many people. I didn't experience one big traumatic event, just several little ones that added all up together. My dad was there physically, they my parents didn't get a divorce till I was an adult, but he was not there emotionally. And so I had little emotional connection with him. And it seemed like he enjoyed or he chose more often to spend time with his friends than he did with myself or my sister or my mom. And so because of that I felt rejected. And I was a little chubby growing up as a little girl, I didn't excel at school or in sports, I always felt inferior or that I had to work harder to be average. And so I felt I wasn't good enough that something was wrong with me, which made me I felt inferior and I couldn't live up to everyone's expectations of me. Periodically, I'd hear those words Shame on you, which attacked the my character and the core of who I am. The bottom line was I didn't feel special. I believe the lie that I am not special. And I think all of us experience shame at some degree at some level, and none of us can escape. feeling ashamed. Shame makes us feel different. Like we don't fit in or we don't belong with everyone else. They were it's kind of like we're on the outside looking in. The enemy uses shame to prevent us from being our true selves, the ones who God designed us to be. And shame keeps us also from using the gifts God has given to us to share it with others. Its power comes from its subtlety and its silence and I think half the time. We're unaware of that it's shame affecting us. That's so true.
Denisha Workizer 04:52
And as you describe your history with your dad, I think many of our ladies can relate to that whether it be their mother or their father Other How did shame affect your everyday life?
Norma Donovan 05:03
I did a lot of hiding just as you mentioned, this month's podcasting has been on the lies and you started in the Garden of Eden. And when Adam and Eve sinned, they hid themselves from the Lord. And it's so the Lord, he always wants to connect with us, no matter what state we're in, whether we're being obedient or disobedient, I hid behind the mask of performance, it shame caused me to not like Norma I remember one time a friend picked me up and we were going to go out to breakfast for to celebrate my birthday and, and then the following year, she did the same thing. And I remember that following year because of the healing that had taken place. Between those two years. I remember thinking to myself, Yes, and I like me, I finally like me. But so to feel better about myself, I hid behind the performance Max mask, I tried to get my sense of worth from doing things from performing and doing what others wanted me to do. My dad nicknamed me Miss goody two shoes, because I was always trying to obey them to receive their approval. Another effect that shame had on me, was pretending to be who I thought other people wanted me to be. And I think that the underlying thing of that danisha Was that I feared that if people knew the real Norma, they would not like me. And so I became skilled at being who you are. Others wanted me to be okay. And to the point where I forgot who I was, in the 60s, there was a TV show you were probably too young. So you might not remember it. But it was called What's My Line. And there were three contestants. One was the real person and the other two were posing or pretending to be that person. And they were asked various questions by the moderator, but so that the audience could try to figure out who the real person was. And I remember when I started going through my healing journey, let me back up the at the end of the show, the moderator would always say, well, the real and then they place their name, put their name in there, please stand up. So when I'm going through my, in the beginning of my journey with healing, I remember distinctly the Lord saying, will the real nor Madonna have been please stand up. And it's been a process even Mrs. just silly. It's not a significant thing. But it wasn't until maybe 10 years ago, and I'm 66 today that I discovered what my favorite color was. And it was because I was always shaping myself to be who I thought they might not even had said that. But who I thought I was supposed to be based in someone else's eyes, not in God's eye. I also grew up believing that I needed to be what I call user friendly. And that was doing whatever people asked of me. I ended up saying yes, way too often, because again, I didn't want to cause disappointment, which would lead to rejection. And later in life, I became so overly committed to ministry that I experienced emotional burnout. I rarely shared my opinion. And I was like a full on people pleaser. My biggest motivation if you can go back to the root of things. My biggest motivation was to avoid being avoid experiencing abandonment, I did not want to be isolated, I did not want to be alone. So I did whatever I could do to avoid being alone. I also became a perfectionist to or tried to, to help counteract those feelings of shame. I tried to appear perfect or holding it all together, having it all together, hoping to prevent my flaws from being exposed. And so because of that, danisha I became a modern day Pharisee I tried to earn God's approval and acceptance, through obedience through legal that had the thought that if I went to church every week, or a couple times a week, if I prayed and read the word daily, and I ministered to many, then maybe he would accept me, instead of what's really true is the opposite. He already accepts us. And then we do those things because of our love for Him.
Denisha Workizer 09:43
That is something that I think so many of us as women struggle with is as you've been sharing your story, I'm thinking who sent you my journal for the last 10 years?
Norma Donovan 09:54
Denisha Workizer 09:56
Everything you're saying I can so identify with personally Also I know a lot of our women can as well. These are really deep lies that we can believe. And we just I really appreciate when you said avoiding abandonment, and for me it would be no rejection also those two things, so come hand in hand, but the Lord has already accepted us. And I love what you said there. We don't have to work for hims his acceptance, he's already accepted us and we work we do things for him out of our love for Him. What a beautiful picture
Norma Donovan 10:29
you painted. And you're right, I think trying to be perfect trying to perform that really is a heavy cloak. We're a burden that we're carrying that he doesn't want us to carry that he wants us to live to work from a position of rest, just sitting on the daddy's lap, he wants to co partner with us. And another way that shame affected me danisha Was I wore the cloak of a rescuer I needed to be needed in order to feel significant. And again, that was another way I tried to hide from my shame. I became overly responsible codependent on people and even doing things to the point where when others could do something, I still would take over and do it for them. Very wrong. I'm, it's easy to become an enabler when you're trying to override your shame. But instead of and instead of running into the arms of Jesus for comfort, from that shame, I ran to food and to comfort me. And reading books became my go to friends. If I was experiencing loneliness, I would read and any I God's given us lots of things, for our enjoyment. But anything that supersedes him, is an idol. And so that's how I medicated myself, so to speak, during the shameful time. Dr. Kurt Thompson, he's a Christian psychiatrist and author of a wonderful book I highly recommend it's called the soul of shame. And he writes this, that shame undermines the process of joyful attachment, integration, and creativity. So shame robs us of joy, the ability to be creative. And really, shame is the thief of intimacy.
Denisha Workizer 12:25
That's so true. That's so true. Because we hide just like you mentioned, when we're in shame, we hide and then we don't have that intimacy that we want with the Lord and that he wants with us.
Norma Donovan 12:37
Yeah, yeah, it's not till our hearts are restored, and whatever it is, whether it's shame or something else, that we can then have that freedom to have that close relationship with Him, or with others.
Denisha Workizer 12:50
Oh, isn't that true, too? Yeah. Yeah. I can also relate to when you said you went for to food for comfort. I am a chocolate girl to the core. And I always milk I know, dark chocolate is better for you. I am a milk chocolate girl. And I learned Oh goodness, probably about six, seven years ago, and I'm still learning it. I'm still trying to but it really, I thought Oh, I like chocolate. If I'm sad. They realized I like chocolate. When I'm really happy that I realized I like chocolate when I'm bored. And then I realized it was a coping mechanism to avoid feeling for me. And that the route going back to all of that route is either rejection abandonment, or shame for me personally. So I can definitely relate to that shame can come and it can almost hold us captive. And it can hold us captive behind like prison doors. What lies deep Did you believe personally Norma that kind of kept you behind those prison doors of shame. One was
Norma Donovan 13:52
that I have to be perfect or at least look like it so that people will like me, I believe the lie that only perfect people were acceptable. And just this morning, I was thinking Tanisha let's look at Jesus who did he minister to who did he choose to be His disciples they were anything but perfect. So that that comforts me another lie I believed is that I need to stuff my negative emotions so that people will accept me so that I will be okay. Or appear Okay. Another one was I have to do more and be more in order to be acceptable. And then maybe I would like myself. The huge one was I must not be special or my dad would spend time with me. Another one was I must earn God's love through my performance. And we just talked about that what the truth is, I must have everyone's love and approval. DENISE I have found that our identity is entwined in the law. Eyes are the truth that we believe. So if you unravel a lie, I think I'm a visual person. So visual things helped make if you pulled out a string on a sweater, it just completely unravels. So if we unraveled the lies, then you unravel your false identity. If you unravel the truth, you will see who you truly are your true identity, who God designed you to be. And our speech, our actions, our obedience, and our emotions come from what we believe we live from our beliefs. You can't be anyone but who you believe you are. And one of the main practices I zero in on when I mentor women is to help them to discover those lies, what are they believing? Because once you think you're out that it enlightens you to the schemes of the enemy, and you know what he's trying to do. And you see how these lies have shaped your we demolish that deception by declaring the truth from God's word, which is the opposite of what ever the lie is. So for example, if I'm telling myself that I must earn God's love through my performance, the truth I could declare aloud, and I do believe faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of God, I do believe. Sometimes we know things in our head, but we don't have revelation in our heart. And I have found, it helps to say the truth out loud, so that revelation can get down to the heart, it builds the faith, or something, but the verse I would use for that, that I must earn God's love through my performance, I would counteract that with Romans five, eight, But God demonstrates His own love for us in this While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And a month ago, this was huge to me, I, the Lord flipped a lie, he flipped the lie that I must not be special, or my dad would spend time with me. All along, I felt I wasn't worthy to be made a priority in my dad's eyes, for him to spend time with me, and the enemy used that lie to show me that I was not valuable, that God reframed it with the truth that it was the opposite of what I really believed. The Holy Spirit said it was because I was so special to my dad, that he feared he would make a mess of our relationship, or that he would hurt me or somehow screw it up. And that's why he chose to be with his friends. In dad sighs I believe that it was less risky for him to be with his friends, since his love for them wasn't as great as his love was for me. And so thinking the lie, I'm not special, when the Lord flipped that and reframe the situation that became I'm extra special. So you can see we either live from lies, or we live from the truth. And either one like the lie that I'm not special to my dad that just had so many ramifications, so many consequences. But if I wonder how my life would have been different if I had lived from the truth, that I'm extra special, instead of thinking the opposite. Yeah.
Denisha Workizer 18:39
But that's it's just such a beautiful picture to see that being reframed. I've read that shame can come into our lives as early as 15 to 18 months old. Hmm. So that is a very early emotion for us to experience and then that for you as a core memory that you held on to and then lived out of that boy, how beautiful the earlier we can catch those lies that the enemies tried to use over us and speak to God's truth. The more freedom and the earlier the freedom we get to walk in our lives. How did that truth Norma How did that truth of knowing you were extra special? How did that when that really hit your heart because boy one encounter with God right? It changes everything and what we believe when he speaks truth, it's Whoa, that really does cement that in our hearts. What decisions what behavior what beliefs now that you know that truth? What changed in Norma? What changed in you
Norma Donovan 19:38
I'm still in the process because it's was a fairly like a month ago or something. I love that even more. It just gives me more security and who I am that not only am I God's beloved, I was my dad's bill and it gives me confidence and a greater ability to be who I'm supposed to be all along the Creator designed to me in a certain way. And I kept living, thinking I had to be like sewing or do what? So and so wanted me to do and no, he just wanted me to be who He created me designed me to be. And that's where I think not only are we do we experience the most freedom, when we're that person, but he also receives the most glory.
Denisha Workizer 20:29
Us women, we really compare a lot of things to each other. And that really, that shuts down that comparison when we can hold true that God group created us. And just like you said, well, the real normal step forward, I think that's such a beautiful challenge for each of us as women is to shake off that comparison to shake off the I should be like, or I have to and just to sit in daddy's lap. As you said, I love that picture. It's a picture I have of him sitting in a rocking chair, and I'm just crawling up in his lap, and I try to listen to his heartbeat. And that is just, that's my personal just by time that I want to enter into time with the Lord. That's how I pictured the little girl climbing in daddy's lap and listening to him. And when we hear what he has to say about us what freedom that brings to be able to step out and be who He created you to, because that is the best version of ourselves. And I think we still get that. And so I appreciate you bringing that truth forward for us. Because I know I forget that sometimes I think if only if I could I should I would that. That's not how God designed us. I'm dorky and nerdy. And I say silly things at times that I think are really funny. And I've recently learned that's how God made me and it's okay, I spent a lot of time trying to hide that because I didn't see that much in other people. And now I'm like, we're just gonna let it out. Because this is how God graded me. And if I'm a little nerdy, I think that's okay. So I think there's so much freedom to be like you said to step forward and who God created you to be
Norma Donovan 22:00
and love that. We need you to be
who you are. My nerdy self? Yes.
Norma Donovan 22:07
Because it's not just for God to receive glory, you have something very unique, how he designed you that so many people the world needs to experience and to partake of. And a few weeks ago, we were at our pastor's house, and they're very prophetic. And I just said, Hey, if you ever have a prophetic word, I'm all yours. And so they waited on the Lord, and for a few minutes, and one of the word pictures was, she saw me just sitting on the ground with all these gifts in front of me. And they were what God had given to me to give away. So I just want to bless you and say thank you, Tanisha
Denisha Workizer 22:49
came to you. I love the picture also of the gifts, what gifts his god given you to give other people. And if we're not if we're hiding behind that letter, and we don't allow him to pull that thread and unravel those lies, we don't fully realize all he's given us for other people. So I think that's a beautified I love your word pictures. That's I'm a very visual person too. So I love the pictures. I'm like, Yes, I will that is cemented in me. Now this letter. It says very cemented in my heart, I hear some of the process that God began with you. And just for instance, just turning that lie about your dad into truth. And I just we say a lot in that if you hear something that take it for yours, if you hear something that resonates with you, and God speaks that and you really just lands on you in a way that he's breathing into that, that take that as yours. And so any of our listeners, if you're similar experience to Norma with a parent or someone that you care deeply, and felt like you weren't special, I would just say that we receive what Norma received from the Lord because that is true of you as well that you are extra special and whatever those circumstances are behind the heart as Norma was revealed that what her dad's heart was actually that he was trying to protect her and wanted to do the best and didn't want to mess something up whatever that truth is to just ask the Lord to reveal that but the bottom line truth is that you are extra special. What other process did God use to begin healing? That heart of shame that you wrestled with that you shared? This
Norma Donovan 24:27
probably took place 30 years ago, but we were finishing up at a counseling leadership retreat, and a an older woman which she was probably my age now looking back, she hugged me goodbye. And she said two words. And I was your special. And you see how that counteracted what I had believed and then a few days later, we went to a conference a healing conference in Anaheim, California. And I was part of a seminar on healing emotional Now this was before I realized I was in burnout. Or it has a sense of humor there. And the last day of that seminar, they had a worship leader come in to play, play his guitar and sing quietly while the pastor's ministered. And I had went forward for ministry then came back and sat down and was just waiting to say goodbye to a few of the women I had connected with. And the worship pastor came over to me and he said, Is it okay? The Lord is asking me to do something I've never done before. And I said, Please do it. I wanted him to obey the Lord. So he played his guitar, and he's saying, Jesus loves you, over me. And I wept. And then after he finished, she had to profound to me word pictures that began to break that shame off and to ins reinstate the honor that God wanted me to believe and to walk in. And the first vision he had was, I was standing under a shower. And the water was just cleansing me of my sin and shame. And then he saw the water, go down a dirt road, and it pooled at the foot of the cross. That's where my sin, that's where my shame was going to remain. And then the next one, it was we were at a banquet, and Jesus was at the head table at a banquet. I came in, I sat at the back table. And then Jesus got up. And he came, and he said, Come sit next to me. And he brought me to the front of the table. And to me that showed in, in God's eyes, I wasn't defective. I wasn't worthless. I was his daughter who had value. And it wasn't because of something I did. It was because of all of what he did. And his love for me as his daughter. So that was kind of like the beginning.
Denisha Workizer 27:06
That's amazing. And you did you see that yourself in your mind's eye in your heart? Yes, yes. showed you that. Yes. For any of our listeners, if they've never experienced something like that, would you tell a little bit? How did you start to hear God's voice to see him showing you those images? Like you said, God knows you're a visual person. So he's speaking to you in that way. And I think that's beautiful. How, if you've never experienced that, what was that? Like
Norma Donovan 27:35
when someone's telling a story? When you're like, I prefer reading a book rather than seeing the movie or read the book first before you see the movie, because then you imagine it in your mind of what's taking place. And so when he was just sharing those word pictures, to me with me, I was just able to imagine it. In my mind, I could see what he was describing.
Denisha Workizer 27:59
I love that he's so tender. How he does that. That's so beautiful. What a great journey that the Lord has had you on to shatter shame and all the other things that come with it. You defined it so well there when you said I no longer felt like I was worthless. Like I was defective. But I was the daughter of the king. Yeah, I love that. That's so true. It's so true. What is for some of our ladies who are listening that is just like, I can imagine nodding because I'm not sitting here nodding with you like Yes, oh, yes, I completely can relate to that. What are some keys that we can use Norma to shatter shame in our lives,
Norma Donovan 28:37
one of them. And this again comes from Dr. Kurt Thompson. He says this, that the healing of shame begins and ends in the experience of being known. We can love God love ourselves or love of others, only to the degree that we are known by God and known by others. So I think one of the keys in this process of shattering shame is that our stories need to be listened to. We need to share our stories we need to be heard. And when that happens we're we feel known and we feel loved. I think that's one reason why one of my favorite things to do is to sit in solitude in silence with the Lord and just listen to his voice. Sometimes he says things and other times it's just him and me just sitting there together. No one it neither of us are saying anything, but that has deepened my intimacy with Him because it's those times that I feel like I am being known by him. And it's his voice that accepts me just as I am not. Yes, I want to grow closer to Him. Yes, I want to be more Christ like have that spiritual formation take place in me, but he loves me even if I haven't arrived, which I won't until this side of heaven, but he lets We know how pleased he is with me again, not because I'm perfect or obedient, but because I'm his daughter, when we first have kids, they can't do much. But our love for them actually even starts when they're in our womb. And so there's no shame when he looks upon us or when he speaks tenderly to us, I think of the Scripture, Psalm 34 Five that says, Those who look to him are radiant, their faces are never covered with shame, that unfortunately, our culture tells us not to reveal who we really are, because we will be rejected them. So the enemy again, twists and distorts the truth. I used to believe I couldn't ask someone to help me. Because I thought they didn't want to be bothered. I thought that if I shared a need with them that would only prevent us from becoming closer friends. And then several years ago, the Holy Spirit showed me No, that's not true. This is what is true. And a friend recently shared that a need having a need creates a bond between people. And what the Holy Spirit showed me is that if I asked a friend to help me, they would feel needed. And it's that mutual dependence on one another that builds a closer relationship. So actually, what I thought was true was actually preventing me from having the intimacy I desired. So the remedy for shame is healthy vulnerability and community. We come against that isolation, that disconnectedness by being our true selves, around safe people, being vulnerable, humbling ourselves sharing what we normally would hide gets rid of shame. It feels counterintuitive to turn toward and into embrace what we're most terrified of being known for who we really are. Yet, that's the path to true intimacy. Someone once said that intimacy means into me. You see, that's good, just even earlier. Before you started to record danisha, you were telling me a little bit about your story, what a precious story. And if you were giving me a little insight into who you are, and what some of what you've experienced, you helped me get to know who you are. And that creates the bond that creates the intimacy when we hide, when we don't share these things. We can't be close to one another. And David Beller, in his book, The gift of being yourself writes this, that those parts of us that feel most broken, and that we keep most hidden, are the parts that most desperately need to be known by God, so as to be loved and healed. I am fortunate to be a part of a little group, I meet with three other girlfriends on Tuesday mornings. And it's a place a safe place where we can share our hearts with one another, The Good, the Bad, and the ugly. And then we pray for each other a couple of weeks ago, I said, Hey, I think we should call ourselves the mask, Lis club. I love it. When we come here, we take off our mask, we're just our true selves with one another when if shame, if we're feeling ashamed because of sin that we have done, then God has given us the gifts of confession and repentance we turn away from In fact,
Norma Donovan 33:38
I used to not like repentance, because it made me focus on what I did wrong, which only made me feel more ashamed. And then the Lord showed me how this is really a gift I've given to you. Because I don't want you to feel a shame. I don't want you to feel guilty. And so you simply need to repent and turn away from whatever the sin was and turn back to him so that we don't have that shame any longer. If shame is caused. If we experience shame, because of what someone has done to us, then the gift of forgiveness is what we need to do to get rid of that shame so that we're no longer connected emotionally to them. And then we need to remember that our righteousness is based on what God has done through Christ and His grace, not on anything normal could have done. It's like shame is like a prison door. And God's grace is the key that unlocks that door to our freedom. Ephesians 289 says four It is by grace you have been saved by faith. And this is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God not by works so that no one can boast. So instead of disgrace God's grace Trump's Are shame. And then I mentioned earlier, one of the steps to shattering shame would be to replace to identify the lies and then replace them with God's truth. Who does God say you are having that identity, being grounded in who you belong to you are his, that will solidify your significance. And lastly, I think we put our hope in God, to shatter that shame that's within our hearts. He promises us in Psalm 25. Three, no one who hopes in you in God will ever be put to shame. So we can place our hope in God because we are certain that he will ultimately use that shame for our good. And for His glory. That once were delivered from the prison of shame, then like we've discussed earlier, we can become free to be who God has created us to be.
Denisha Workizer 36:01
Let's all do that.
That was such a great tactical, yes, let's
Denisha Workizer 36:09
do that. Yes, exactly. Those are such great practical tip, stormy, because shame is a tough, it is one of those things. It's like, I feel this. I don't know what to do with this. And so I love the practical tips that you've given us to help to shatter that. Oh, I could talk to you all day. This has been such a great conversation. Thank you for just pouring in to our listeners, and any final words that you would like to share before we go today?
Norma Donovan 36:35
Yeah, I just want to encourage everyone to find a few safe, close friends that you can be vulnerable with, to have that community to be able to share your story. And then also allow God to reframe things in your life, reframe parts of your story, to reframe your view of yourself. So you see it from his point of view, his loving gaze, ladies, you are special to God, don't ever doubt that. Don't ever forget that. And in his eyes, there is no shame. And if I could just close with speaking a blessing over your listeners, and it's taken from Isaiah 61 Seven, instead of your shame, you will receive a double portion. And instead of disgrace, you will rejoice in your inheritance. And so you will inherit a double portion in your land. And everlasting joy will be yours. Amen.
Denisha Workizer 37:40
Amen. Norma, thank you so much for being with us today.
Norma Donovan 37:45
You're welcome. It was my joy and pleasure. And he told me, I was going to have fun and that I did. Thank you. Oh, I'm
Denisha Workizer 37:55
so glad I know that I want to stay connected with you. So how can our listeners stay connected with you also,
Norma Donovan 38:02
they can go to our website, which is www dot restoring dash, the hyphen, their hearts.com. So that's restoring dash hearts.com. And you can find out their free resources on the website. They can partake. And if they want to hear more about my story, just like you had mentioned, they could go to Amazon and pick up a copy of restoring your heart to deepen intimacy. There you go.
Denisha Workizer 38:35
Yes, thank you so much, Norma and I look forward to having you back on the podcast.
Norma Donovan 38:40
I would love that. Thank you. Demacia.
Denisha Workizer 38:42
Thank you. Thanks for listening. I pray you found hope in today's conversation and maybe even feel a little less alone in your story. Stay connected with us on Facebook and Instagram at reclaimed story. Want to learn more about living a reclaimed life and how you can be a part of our growing community ever claimers? Check out our website at reclaimed story.com all of those links and more will be in the show notes. And if you enjoy this inspirational podcast Be sure to subscribe rate and review. Not only will you be the first one to know when new content comes out, but it is also a huge help and helping us reach more people to live the reclaimed life.