Every day our lives demand that we do more. More in our family, work, relationships, the list goes on and on. What about God? Have you ever felt that He is another pressure in your life pulling you to 'do' more? When we received the forgiveness of Jesus, it was based on what He did, not what we "do". He gives us unconditional love, yet we tend to apply our own set of conditions. What would it look like to live your life as a human "be"-ing instead of as a human "do" -ing?
In today's episode, join Reverend Dr. Sanghoon Yoo as we discuss faith and trauma-informed care while examining how trying to 'do' more can result in guilt and shame. That is not Jesus' heart for you. May you discover the gift of being through this conversation.
Stay connected with Rev. Dr. Sanghoon Yoo, The founder of The Faithful City (TFC)
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Transcript is Auto-Generated
trauma, god, shame, unconditional love, people, guilt, life, ashamed, christ, healing, relationship, lord, informed, pain, jesus, human doings, reclaimed, original sin, human, cross
Sanghoon Yoo, Denisha Workizer
Denisha Workizer 00:00
Every day, our lives demand that we do more family work, relationships, the list goes on and on. And what about God? Have you ever felt that he has another pressure in your life pulling at you to do more? When we receive the love and forgiveness of Jesus, it was based on what he did, not what we do. He gives us that unconditional love, yet we tend to apply our own set of conditions. What would it look like to live your life as a human being instead of a human doing? In today's episode, join Reverend Dr. Singh who knew as we discuss faith and trauma informed care while examining how trying to do more can actually result in guilt and shame. And friends. That is not Jesus's heart for you. May you discover the gift of being through this episode with Sanghoon you. Welcome to Living the Reclaim life Podcast. I'm Tanisha We're glad you're here for conversations that revive hope inspire healing and encourage you to live a vibrant life with Christ. So grab a cup of coffee as we chat with today's guest. Today I am so excited to introduce you to Reverend Dr. Sang Hoon you. My friend, who is the founder of the faithful city has led ministries and social services at ASU and the Phoenix metropolitan area for over two decades. He holds a master's degree in social work and a Doctor of Ministry degree. He also founded the Arizona trauma informed faith community which is where we connected and collaborating with the Arizona aces consortium where he served as a founding board member, you guys he is certified in spiritual direction, Aces training of trainers, trauma informed care, mindfulness, leadership, social emotional learning, historical trauma, and many other trainings sang Hoon, your resume is incredible what you've been doing for the Kingdom. And so as I introduce you to my friend today, we are going to meet at the intersection of faith, trauma informed care on the topic of shame, and Sanghoon. Welcome to the podcast. I'm just so thankful that you are here with us today.
Sanghoon Yoo 02:23
Thank you, Nisha, I'm so blessed and honored to be here with you and all the listeners. I don't know, I know we only have about 30 minutes but and also we're going to talk about the issue of the shame. But I just want to introduce myself. For those who don't know me your bio is by but I got into this movement with my own personal story. I came to United States 30 years ago for my study in social work and in Michigan State actually but I moved down to Arizona and my advisor came here and to pursue my PhD degree but I found that my calling is full time pastor so I became a pastor 25 years ministering at ASU in all other areas locally nationally, working with a great people together like you didn't however, a lot of things happened. And to make a long story short, I got into my own traumatic season, why I'm serving the campus and all the Phoenix area or working with the community workers together a lot of trauma out there. And so we call this a vicarious trauma. So others trauma impact our life, but also I went through my own traumatic season, I did end my own almost giving up my life 910 years ago, and then I just very suicidal and I wanted to keep up everything because I felt like everything was a waste of time in my life and who poured a lot for me. As an immigrant. We carry a lot of survivor's guilt and everything so it was really hard. So in other words, shame is the word really hit me hard and a lot of guilt I just a story I'm sorry, 24/7 to my wife, and everybody almost broke all the relationships. At the time I went to DC and found by chance there is no by chance in God. But in DC there is a conference trauma and from congregation Conference, which I never thought mental health and pastors in trauma and church can work together. And I found that trauma informed care science adverse childhood experiences we call the ACEs study, and then I got involved in the movement and came here locally but involved with the original aces consortium and since that time, it just a boob guy just exponentially grew this and in the middle of it, I made tremendous we are meeting people like you, but my real testimony is God found me and I found God again and my face got restored. And I really got through the all the healing with all just a science and my faith in merging together. So that's my real testimony. That's why I'm very passionate here. I'm not here just to trauma is a kind of trauma informed care buzzword and you gotta try Only we teach those things. No, it's not like that I left a trauma area 30 years ago because it was too heavy. I don't feel like I'm fitting their goddess to human humerus, right, I came back. And then I thought I lost everything. But now, I found by God again, I gained everything, we gained everything what I thought I lost everything. And I cannot believe you know, 10 years ago, I also switched solder. Now, I got connected to so many people. In a sense, I don't want you to think if you believe in God, you can be successful. That's not my message. My message is, God is so amazingly resilient. And once he chose you, he never give up. That's the major foundation where our shame must be dealt with. Because we are chosen by God as his beloved child. And a lot of times, when can people come to God? Just talking about, Oh, I did the wrong, I did the right, I should have done that I should do that. It's all about doing. But you know, what, what are my major teaching even before I knew about trauma informed care, there's a splitting issue to contrast between human beings and human doings. And we are called the human being, or we are living like a human doing in society. And that actually, I simply I say, doing human doing is more about the guilt. Guilty is more about what you have done and what you should have not been, what you should do, what you should not do. But shame is really about being issue, who I am. When I say I'm ashamed, which means who I am, is totally shattered and broken and wounded and denied. And I found that this issue as people who are very important for us, and shaming guilt, from original sin, to the redemption in the Christ, and also now the trauma informed science scientists to really research a lot about the shame. So it's very related. And I hope that we can talk a little bit about that today.
Denisha Workizer 07:04
St. John, thank you so much. Thank you for your vulnerability. I think it's really important. We see different pastors that unfortunately have lost their lives in the news and things like that, especially since COVID. And so I love to hear just that you were a pastor, right? Sometimes people look at the platform and think that the pastors have it all together, and everything's wonderful in their lives. And it's only us sitting in the pews that are having problems. And that's not true. And so I love I just appreciate your vulnerability, just speaking that as a pastor, you had a struggle, you had a crisis that you walk through, and that God began to just teach you and train you. And now he is using that pain for such a huge purpose in this movement. It's just been amazing to see. Thank you for that vulnerability. What can I ask what your what was your hinge point? When you realize that you were feeling having thoughts of suicide? And what was your hinge point? How did God move you from there into beginning was at that conference? Tell me a little bit more about that moment?
Sanghoon Yoo 08:07
Yeah, so conference gave me that just momentum and first encounter, actually, from that field, one of the leaders said, one of the most important things that we overcome trauma is unconditional love, our compassion, we can say, and one person with a constant care. And that really hit me because that's not behavior, science jargon or medical jargon. That's what I'm doing. This is all about what our churches are doing. Oh, maybe in trauma informed care, science, there is a place that the faith in the science can come together. And you guys know that Dr. Bruce Perry, but when he innovated with Oprah, also Oprah asked her what is the most important thing the recovery of a trauma? And he said one word I was I watched that 60 minutes show years ago, and he said the one word which was relationships. And obviously we know in our church world these days, we say, oh, it's not about religion, it's about relationship. Obviously, Christ came to bridge the gap to restore the relationship between father and us. And then and he came here not to condemn us which is a John 317 I always say trauma informed congregation theory got the real gospel is not honest with Eckstein but 17, too, because Jesus said he came not to condemn the world to save the world. That's the main thing that when we feel ashamed, because what a lot about blame and condemnation, and then when I talk about the unconditional love why I was struggling, right? I was dealing with trauma. First of all people think a trauma is then what happened, what kind of thing happened to you trauma by the definition of today's trauma informed care is not about really the event is the event but also it's a interpretation of the event, which means experience. And also, it's a lasting effect through our all nervous system, brain system, mind and body, which means whenever there are some stimulate stimulating triggers or activators, hit my brain memory and trauma memory, my body. And I just manifest the trauma symptom, again, is called we call this a retraumatization. So what I'm saying is that trauma is the living with me long time.
Sanghoon Yoo 10:31
And actually, trauma informed care is really about how to change our response to debt, living, embodied and memory, not just about what happened years ago. That's the first lesson here that the people always ashamed, oh, my gosh, I got anxiety. Again, I got the PTSD symptom again. And I just did a hyper vigilant again, a lot of symptoms coming up a fight, flight and freeze or other things coming up. And then the first thought is what had happened to 14 years ago, I still didn't get over and I thought I got over my panic attack. It happens again, with a very stupid reason. Oh, I was so weak faith. Or maybe I thought I worked very well. But it's now it's very shameful. But what we need to understand is that's the reality of our human in your in the original trauma Institute. So Dr. Bob wrote and always say this is a correct biological response, correct biological behavior to the trauma, I want to tell you, when you feel ashamed with this, instead of feeling ashamed. I hope that you are grateful because you're humble in my own healing process. One word I can pick up for myself with the whole world, what we need for the trauma healing. Ironically, I want to say it's a humility, we need to be humble. But not just the kind of humbled to be oppressed or depressed, but humbled to acknowledge that I'm not in control, God is in control. That actually frees us. Because when I do do some weird things from my body system, my thoughts, my thinking, my emotions, even Lord, I tried, but it doesn't work. So I leave it up to you. I'm not talking about my own theology. Look at Second Corinthians chapter 12, one to 10. That's one of my favorite scripture. This is a failure of Apostle Paul. So not because I love it, but because, wow, this is a real deal that that God what God does with us, because obviously, Paul prayed three times, but God said, I'm not gonna answer your prayer because of My grace is sufficient. And he said that when you are weak, you are complete. Wow, what is that? Because God wants us to be in his companionship is not about ability. It's about the availability. We use our faith, not to be able we do, but also more than that, we use our face to be available with God. In the sense, I'm humbled, because I cannot do without you and I want you and you want me. And that's a love relationship. And that's very important for us to find all I'm humiliated because of a trauma, symptom shaming, guilt, but actually, there can be a breach for me to re enter God's realm. I'm not talking about my theology, again, go to book of jobs of Job chapter 30. God healed the job not based on the huge amazing therapy. He just showed the jaw look at the world I made Can you imagine so he just did a kind of a comprehensive a creation lecture. And then Joe found Oh my You are so big and huge Look at me I'm nothing so t got humbled and there was a real beginning of His healing because you loved me so much like a psalm eight talking about you just love me so much. You look at the whole universe, I am nothing and it's a humbling but actually is kind of affirming that how much God loves me. He died for me he came to this earth to die on the cross and I just want to say this desktop the power of unconditional love. So you know what I struggled with was like that. I struggled every day and night I cannot sleep well in the morning I woke up two o'clock and my pain and and everything right so I struggled with God like a Jacob. I call it the Jacob season, but I still struggle with God why why I protest and complain all the things. Meanwhile, I figured because Denisha your talk about Oh, was that kind of really made a kind of a point that converting my pain to healing and trauma informed care. Yeah, I heard the unconditional love. And then I found that God is so huge as he assured the job and how much he is a magnitude is amazing. That happened to me. And then
Sanghoon Yoo 15:15
he just lend me a real limb, my heart really be touched by his unconditional love. You know what I found in Asia, you and I were pastor, we all talking about the unconditional love, right? So we love to talk about unconditional love he has. However, when we apply that unconditional to us, we became so conditional. That's why good Christians are dealing with so much of self blame, which ends up with a shame, which ends with the guilt. It's ironic, isn't it? We are supposed to be free from all these things than anybody else engages. Right? We are free from shame, we are free from guilt, we are free from the fear. But actually, we are so much surrounded by this. Why? Because we are still a child, a baby before our dad, we have to receive His unconditional love and grace every day, every morning, every night, every minute, don't be ashamed when you like, Hey, that's a Krishna, the one on one Basics. I'm seeing the basics. If you look at really professional athletes, so successful professional athletes, what they do, they always go to basics. We always have to go to basics, and we need to be ready before God, Lord, I'm still sinner, pasta, you love me unconditionally. I accept it. Actually, I have a resistance against it because I think I'm mature. But I confess I'm not that great. However, because of a your love, I receive it. And instead of judging myself and blending myself shaming myself, I just follow you, you rise, I rise, you die either, I decrease you increase. That's the where that kind of. That's the That's why I'm so passionate for the speakers. Jesus as Denisha used, you told me before that Jesus is a key for our salvation, not because of his power, but because of his unconditional love is blood was shed on the cross. Let me give you another reason. Because we did that second Corinthians chapter 12. One and 10. I did. I'm preaching on that. Because it's a paradox right when we are when we are complete. But who did that the best example it was Apostle Paul's case. For actually who she is ironic. A lot people say we don't talk about trauma we only talk about let's see the church. Really, I always ask, what is the symbol of Christianity that around the world? Everybody knows this is a Christianity. That's a cross. Yeah. What happened in the cross? Yeah, she just died on the cross. That's a trauma. And I always say if I'm son of God, like he just if I'm the only son of God, I'm gonna really have a strong argument against my Father in heaven. That please remove that cross from my resume. Right? When you do the right resume, what you write the first most powerful accomplishment and think about it, God use Sky News, His Son to save the world, not based on his amazing accomplishment. Here's the most shameful moment is his life. God didn't use success to say success. He just to save the word. God use shame of Jesus to save the world. So I want to say this, that, please, let's be heal our shame. In God's unconditional land on the one step further. Let's use this for our discipleship. Because Jesus told us take upon your cross and follow me my shame is not shame anymore. Because this is the gateway to healing from heaven to earth and father to me. And like achievers, I'm gonna boast to my shame, like our passport, I'm gonna boast my shame. Ironically, paradoxically, through these people are going to be healed and encouraged. And I'm gonna keep following Jesus. So, this is an amazing, powerful choice in Christ, we can share for the trauma informed care.
Denisha Workizer 19:42
Saying hello, I didn't expect to cry during this interview. But I'm sitting here with some Okay. Your heart so comes through and there's so many things that you've said that just resonated with me. So I'm sitting here we're over zoom, and I'm like wiping tears trying I just still see clearly, tears in my eyes. You said so many things that were just so powerful just the heart of the Lord, you can hear it in your words sing home. I love when you said, we apply unconditional love, but then we apply conditions. And that to me just encapsulated that human being versus human doing right. We human being is what you just described as being being in that relationship with the Lord, sitting at his feet, being humble, and realizing you are so big God and I am so small and You are the Lord over my life. Right? Then human doing says a different narrative to us human doings says, What have you done for God today? Who What have you done? What can you do? And I think that is the conditions that so much we put, like you said, shame comes out of what we've done, then that starts to reframe who we believe we are. But when we sit at his feet, when we sit with the Lord and relationship, he begins to remind us of who our identity is, and who we are, what we be right. Our human being is all in him. And I think so many times we get that backwards. And we think that we get favor with God through do it. It's really through the beam. And in ministry, we get that messed up. I think in our families, we get that messed up. I think we get that backwards a lot. And so I just I love how you just how you painted that picture was just so clear. How do we avoid that? What kinds of things can we do thing home? How do we avoid getting trapped in that human doing? Part? Because everybody tells us Do we have computers that used to take up the size of a room now in our pockets? Everybody's pulling at us to do more, do more? What do you say to that? How do we take the posture of being
Sanghoon Yoo 21:54
right I connect that all the trauma informed care to the original sin because a lot of times that the believers and churches are oh we talk about sin but not the trauma that's not even bible so it's not people recalling all those things but again, trauma is the response to me trauma is a consequence in response of the sin after Original Sin what happened to add in a knee you will see exactly the fight and flight and freeze because they just to flight the flight this ran away from God right and they cover themselves because of a shame. And I'm sure when God said Hey, Adam na Where are you guys? And then they got frozen. Oh, and God as the one who told you this you need to cover yourself in all the things and then what Adams that this is my favorite part. This is this woman right? Oh cower the guy he didn't I wish he could say I'm sorry that that's my fault. But he just accused the woman and he's saying he's a very feisty and they're either too and then at that time, so our relationship is totally broken. In that original sin story, and then after that our life is all about survivor and that's why we all focused on what we should do. However, I you very listen carefully what did God ask? God didn't ask what did you do? God asked where are you? Well we respond to God as if he asked What did you do? It all comes whenever we focus on doing because we are in a perfect I think Do you know why we die after further knowledge? Because knowing the good and bad is great things but we know we cannot do what we know what is right all the guilt and shame he piled up now trauma science can prove how much guilt and shame can convert all the poison to my nervous system body and psychology and emotion everything so I'm gonna end up with a cancer or are you just all the things anyway I die it's not because of what I did but because my identity is totally rejecting because
Sanghoon Yoo 24:21
gotcha simply as I was my son and daughter we just act oh I'm sorry we did a good job. So we are hiding here there is a some twist and distortion here. God is looking for his son and daughter, not good worker servant successful accomplishments, you know that the minister and that's very important is not about the performance is about distance. Not what did you do? Where are you my son, my daughter, and then we are afraid of him, but because we are ashamed, however, if we got hit by his own condition Allah, right? What happened, not the grace on a door, when I'm always with you. That's what exactly you see from Mary and Martha story. She wants to be close to as much as possible to teach us to listen to him to listen his word, but to be willing. So it's about what our relationship, how close we are, in spite of all that conditions we can think of. So this is about my identity, my identity is to be totally to be restored. That's the power of January 16, servation. In trauma, science, they talk about resilience and hope. And they talk about people like women and minorities, our identities are easily stolen, and oppressed to because they're injustice out there to really increase our resilience and hope. It's not just about changing the symptoms, and the healing, and the pain is really about we need to really restore our identity. In other words, who I am is so important. And we need to understand when Jesus who was died on the cross is finished, but it's finished, we know theologically wage of sins, but also our shame is finished. Because Mary, go to my disciples, and He said, What, from now on. My father is your father to think about it seriously. What is the restoration servation is not about a new creation, so I'm not gonna drink again, I'm not gonna be in trauma, again, I'm not gonna in the pain again, I'm gonna be a holy, godly, I'm sorry, actually, the actual which is come from the second Corinthians chapter 517, new creation, and then Paul talk about the ministry of reconciliation, reconciliation, we are newly created in the relationship with God because we are reconciled by the blood of Jesus Christ as what that as a bishop, or a deacon, or a pastor, or teacher, preacher, but as what simply child, simple your son and daughter, and we call you who? That Abba, right, we are not calling him anymore of father or holy God, but he is that you know why people want to throw the stone to Jesus, because the various people because he said, Your God is my Father. That's the most intimate, powerful relationship, please, let's restore that relationship with my dad and ye as as your daughter, as your son, and with you, there's no condition for that. And once I restored more and more with it, then actually I can overcome and the doing and doing is not a prerequisite to gain to earn the beginning. That's what people do, oh, in order to go to heaven, you should do a lot of good work. So our doing is not. However, in Christ, our doing is not earn who I am after I die, as the other way around our doing is instead response to the grace of God that made me
Sanghoon Yoo 28:21
without any condition as His child is saved, adaptive d'Oro answer. So we need to really flip it, the more we get into his unconditional love in our prayer, meditation, and intimate relationship with God spending time with God, then there is a key that we can really flip this vicious cycle. And even when I did wrong, there are some struggle, but but actually, they can be more a kind of good material for me to intensify who I am. Right? So I always contrast between what if, and even if, if we are in trauma and pain and fear anxiety, we always say, what if, what if, what if? What if we got rejected? What if I'm not healed? What if what if, if we you are in Christ? We always say what, even if, even if I did this thing, even if people hate me, even if sometimes I don't understand myself, still, I'm in Christ, and He loves me, I'm Child of God, and I'm with him. He is in me, you we are in Christ. We are so close now by work, but by faith, and we have to do this spiritual discipline, this powerful experience every day and night. And that's a true healing so source for us to overcome our trauma, response and pain, but also to keep it as ourselves a human being, rather than human doings.
Denisha Workizer 29:58
Yes and Amen. I'm seeing so many fantastic points in there. Is there anything you want to add? And then I would love to ask you, if you would pray for our listeners, those that can really relate to what you've said, either being distant from God or feeling like they have to do for him or standing in that place of shame. That's all intertwined. I love how you presented that for us today. So any last thoughts before you pray for us? Because I would love that.
Sanghoon Yoo 30:31
Yeah, and one thing I want to say is that the more you experience, right, I hope that that I see the less shaming guilt. And I hope you really feel good about it. Then, you and I, and Indonesia, we all become a Word, God's missionary and evangelist. Let me tell you, I call it again, trauma informed care is not just about the healer. First of all, a lot of times the sin came to me like Asus is not just my willful choice, because sin came to me. So trauma is to relate to the justice, all the listeners, you are oppressed by injustice, and you need to be vindicated. Healing is important for us to vindicate and the that kind of, of vindication, start with, regain who you are first, right, and as a child of God, and, and then with that, I want you to see that God's gonna use you as a missionary, there is the evangelist, because what you experienced, overcoming shame in Christ to Grace unconditionally, that's what we need to brag about. That's all we need to boast about. And I see this test as this is a movement to be a missionary is not just going abroad, a lot of people just going abroad, people asking me, Hey, Stan, where did you go into summary? What is your mission trip, I say, Hello, I crossed the ocean 30 years ago here, and missionary everyday here, and especially in this area, in our trauma field, people don't know that secret powerful secret really powerful. Um, so it's the power of the gospel in Christ. And people need to know this. So I want you to see, this is our mission field, I want to invite you to become our core labor in our kingdom, and to be missionary. And remember that God accepted us unconditionally. And I always say, acceptance is not approval. That's what got you to us. If God accepted based on approval, nobody can. And that's the thing. When we receive God's unconditional love to ourselves, we are very conditional. Likewise, when we apply God's unconditional love to the community, to other people, to the neighbors, we become also very conditional. We need to receive unconditional love when we need to do the unconditional love because we saved it as a child of God. So I hope to you can join to this movement as a core missionary and laborers are the God's kingdom together.
Denisha Workizer 33:06
And Sanghoon How can we find you? How can we join with you in the movement and being those co laborers? How can we find you
Sanghoon Yoo 33:13
my email address is the best is the faithful firstname.lastname@example.org is a one word th e FAITHFU. LLC it, why don't Facebook email@example.com or you can go to www.facebook.org. And then you can find me or if you don't know anything just called Denisha. She knows my every information.
Denisha Workizer 33:38
Yes. And we'll have all that in the show notes as well. And we'll also be putting that on social media this week so people can be sure to reach out to you depending on how they find the podcast. Yeah. Can I pray though? Yes, sang Hoon. Please pray for us. Thank you.
Sanghoon Yoo 33:52
Thank you. Dear Lord God, we thank you for our time. It's all about you. You are the one and to be glorify. And Lord God, we confess our struggle, our pain, and it's so challenging. Sometimes it looks so stupid, so ashamed and so guilty. And Lord is it also looks like sometimes never ending. In the middle of this, Lord, give us a space where we can see that you're crying hard to us, because you're accepted as a lady. On the cross the trauma of our Lord Jesus, you replaced the last trauma with our pain, our shame or guilt. Lord as we accept the power of the blood of Jesus Christ. Let us be cleansed and healed from our past. our pain, our trauma, our guilt, our shame our We're filming over inferiority, and our being silenced. And Lord, we pray with your healing power. Let us die and rise with the Christ and follow Christ take upon our own Christ, even using our shame and guilt. That's not a real shame anymore. That's like a Jesus cross. That's my cross the boats the work, how God is powerful, killed me, and recreated me regenerated, raised me as a disciple to follow Christ together. So Lord God, pray for your divine courage, and the listeners and also a wisdom and strength and perseverance. So we all together to advance your kingdom every day with me and with my neighbors to the end of the world. Thank you, Lord, father. In Jesus name we pray. Amen.
Denisha Workizer 36:02
Amen. Saying hello, thank you so much for being with us today and for just richly blessing us. Thank you. Thank you, Denise. Thanks for listening. I pray you found hope in today's conversation, and maybe even feel a little less alone in your story. Stay connected with us on Facebook and Instagram at reclaimed story. Want to learn more about living a reclaimed life and how you can be a part of our growing community ever claimers? Check out our website at reclaimed story.com all of those links and more will be in the show notes. And if you enjoy this inspirational podcast Be sure to subscribe rate and review. Not only will you be the first one to know when new content comes out, but it is also a huge help and helping us reach more people to live the reclaimed life.